still wondering

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Posts by still wondering

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  9

  The WTS and blood transfusions. Part 1. Please criticise!!

  by still wondering in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the following is part of a letter written to my sister (last remaining family still a jw) who needed surgery.

  i hoped this would be an opportune time to raise the error of misinterpreting the handful of verses that they use to justify wanton suicide.

  if you can think of any arguments that she may present in an effort to rebuff the points made then please comment.. .

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  still wondering

  NN Thanks, high praise indeed from such a long standing member of JWD.

  It seems that no one so far has detected any flaws in the argument or presented any valid rebuffs. Thats what I was hoping.
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  9

  The WTS and blood transfusions. Part 1. Please criticise!!

  by still wondering in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the following is part of a letter written to my sister (last remaining family still a jw) who needed surgery.

  i hoped this would be an opportune time to raise the error of misinterpreting the handful of verses that they use to justify wanton suicide.

  if you can think of any arguments that she may present in an effort to rebuff the points made then please comment.. .

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  still wondering

  TD thanks for clarifying the timing of the change.
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  9

  The WTS and blood transfusions. Part 1. Please criticise!!

  by still wondering in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the following is part of a letter written to my sister (last remaining family still a jw) who needed surgery.

  i hoped this would be an opportune time to raise the error of misinterpreting the handful of verses that they use to justify wanton suicide.

  if you can think of any arguments that she may present in an effort to rebuff the points made then please comment.. .

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  still wondering

  MS Many thanks for the corrections.

  Initially I will be happy with any response as that will mean that at the very least she has read it rather than immediately discarding it which is what I most fear.
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  9

  The WTS and blood transfusions. Part 1. Please criticise!!

  by still wondering in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the following is part of a letter written to my sister (last remaining family still a jw) who needed surgery.

  i hoped this would be an opportune time to raise the error of misinterpreting the handful of verses that they use to justify wanton suicide.

  if you can think of any arguments that she may present in an effort to rebuff the points made then please comment.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  still wondering

  The following is part of a letter written to my sister (last remaining family still a JW) who needed surgery. I hoped this would be an opportune time to raise the error of misinterpreting the handful of verses that they use to justify wanton suicide.

  If you can think of any arguments that she may present in an effort to rebuff the points made then please comment.

  “I’ve been thinking lately about your stay in hospital and the possible consequences of this.

  You remember that for many years the Society taught that the life of a creature was literally in its blood. Then some 25 years ago they changed it back to the belief that the Society formally had prior to 1945, that is at a time when blood transfusions were allowed and not viewed as unscriptural by the Society. The view then and now is that blood merely symbolises the value of life. It is now viewed simply as a metaphor for the value of life.

  Please remember that a symbol or metaphor is neither as nor more important than that which it symbolises. A wedding ring is just a symbol and is clearly not more valuable than that which it symbolises.

  Just as it is not rational for a person to attempt to prove that they value their marriage by committing adultery and throwing their marriage away, so neither does a person prove that they value life by committing suicide so throwing their life away.

  Respect for the value of life demands that a person would do all that is possible to preserve it.

  Jesus outlined the principle when he said;

  Matthew 12:7 "However, if YOU had understood what this means, 'I want mercy, and not sacrifice ,' YOU would not have condemned the guiltless ones."

  Matthew 12:11 "Who will be the man among YOU that has one sheep and, if this falls into a pit on the sabbath, will not get hold of it and lift it out? All considered, of how much more worth is a man than a sheep !"

  Clearly the Society’s post 1945, in contrast with its pre 1945, interpretation put on Acts 15 and 21 is not consistent with any attempt to demonstrate a person has a high value for life or consistent with the principle outlined by Jesus.

  So although the Society says that they now view blood just as a representation of life (a reversal to their previous view) is that currently stated view seen in actuality, that is in real life situations. In reality is this changed view apparent in practice? Clearly not because in contradiction to this view is also the stated belief that the Creator of life requires such sacrifices and is pleased when they are made.

  Think about it, which has greater value, the wedding ring or what it represents, your marriage? Which has greater value, blood or what it represents, life? There is simply no contest. Whilst you view your marriage vows as sacred you do not hold their representation, your wedding ring, as sacred. That would be turning it into an idol. Just as life is sacred its representation, blood, is not sacred because it’s just a symbol. The symbol is replaceable. It is simply a representation of the real thing which is of infinitely greater value. The problems arise when the representation is viewed or masquerades as the real thing.

  It is not only irrational to elevate an object, a symbol, to be of equal or greater value than that which it represents but the effect is to convert what was just a representation into an idol. It is a foregone conclusion what the effect will be of such elevating of blood from that of a simple symbol, representation or metaphor to that of an idol.

  The consequence of making an idol is that sacrifices are invariably made to it. So the belief became that God requires and is pleased when such sacrifices of human life are made. Is that different from what the Canaanites believed? Clearly it is not. Just as the Canaanites made the ultimate sacrifices to their idols i.e. human including child sacrifice, so too in this instance many human lives including the lives of children and babies have been sacrificed over the last 65 years after the Societies ruling on the use of blood in medical treatment changed from permitted to not permitted thereby elevating the value of blood from a that of a simple symbol to that of an idol.

  The Canaanites were condemned for, amongst other actions, not simply for engaging in idolatry but for engaging in the most heinous and wicked form of idolatry that there could possibly be, that of human sacrifice in an attempt to please their god because they believed their god required such sacrifices.”
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  144

  Ray Franz Was Wrong

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  god rest his soul.

  although i never met him personally, he and i did correspond a number of times, and i have numerous friends who have not only met him, but stayed several days with he and cynthia at their home.

  if nothing else, ray was kind, non-judging, and generous.

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  still wondering

  Farkel

  I’ve just read the link provided by good4nothingb from 2002 and it seems that you have changed your opinion on this matter, or rather reversed it.

  Am i reading it right?

  If so what brought this reversal about?
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  144

  Ray Franz Was Wrong

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  god rest his soul.

  although i never met him personally, he and i did correspond a number of times, and i have numerous friends who have not only met him, but stayed several days with he and cynthia at their home.

  if nothing else, ray was kind, non-judging, and generous.

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  still wondering

  Yes, on this point Ray Franz was most definitely and completely wrong.

  Why would anyone expect him to say otherwise? He was part and parcel of the whole deception until he could no longer stand the guilt and strain of perpetrating deliberate lies while simultaneously claiming to be the sole representative of the GOD OF TRUTH. It all became too much for him.

  But I don’t see him admitting that they all knew it was a fraud and an outrageous deception that was perpetrated on millions of people as this would clearly reflect on him and the time that he spent as an integral and leading part of this great deception.

  Raymond Franz, for all his subsequent good work at attempting to make amends for his part in this great deception, was always reluctant to bear his share of the responsibility and hence has NEVER apologised publicly for his gross error in perpetuating the Watchtower LIES.
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  6

  A question for those who still believe.

  by still wondering in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the first step to putting right the sin of adam was for christ to come to the earth to sacrifice his life, preach the gospel of the kingdom and the command to his disciples to preach and attempt to convert the world.. the second step will be or has been christs second coming.. as it is a priority to put right the wrongs of adam and to convert the world of mankind then the sooner the first step is implemented the greater the chance of achieving the desired result as the human population was still relatively small the further back in time so why did god take .

  four thousand human years.

  to implement just the first step?

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  still wondering

  Thank you for all your replies, I’m mulling them over.

  Even man can dispense justice for the most serious crimes, such as murder, in at most some years and it takes that long only because man is fallible and lacks perfect knowledge.

  God who suffers neither of these drawbacks takes thousands of years and counting to deal with a wrong that took just seconds to commit.

  Acts 1:7 tells us that God intends to keep us ignorant of his timetable, but that is not the same as keeping us ignorant of the reason why he takes a particular action. The fact that the bible attempts to explain mankind’s lot is evidence that he does want us to understand his ways.

  It’s just that there are significant gaps that his rational creation would expect answers to.
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  6

  A question for those who still believe.

  by still wondering in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the first step to putting right the sin of adam was for christ to come to the earth to sacrifice his life, preach the gospel of the kingdom and the command to his disciples to preach and attempt to convert the world.. the second step will be or has been christs second coming.. as it is a priority to put right the wrongs of adam and to convert the world of mankind then the sooner the first step is implemented the greater the chance of achieving the desired result as the human population was still relatively small the further back in time so why did god take .

  four thousand human years.

  to implement just the first step?

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  still wondering

  The first step to putting right the sin of Adam was for Christ to come to the earth to sacrifice his life, preach the gospel of the kingdom and the command to his disciples to preach and attempt to convert the world.

  The second step will be or has been Christ’s second coming.

  As it is a priority to put right the wrongs of Adam and to convert the world of mankind then the sooner the first step is implemented the greater the chance of achieving the desired result as the human population was still relatively small the further back in time so why did god take

  FOUR THOUSAND HUMAN YEARS

  to implement just the FIRST step?

  WE’RE TALKING HUMAN TIME HERE, not Gods time, as he being the creator of time exists outside of physical time.

  I must be overlooking something, but what?

  Can anyone provide a rational explanation why action to put right such HUMAN wrongs was not taken in a HUMAN time scale?
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  310

  Mill Hill Disfellowshippings

  by BorgHater in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.

  i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.

  borghater xx.

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  still wondering

  Podobear, Aligot

  Hi, you must remember the blundering Arthritis Rastell the only person I know of who was prosecuted for dangerous driving when he wasn’t actually in his car when he committed the offence.

  There was also the year that a "sister" turned up at the memorial dressed as a bride all in white, and the "brother" who used to daub WT slogans across advertising bill boards on the South Circular. Then there was Jude who broke into the KH , cut himself and wrote obscenities on the wall in his blood. And Cathy who used to be attacked by the "demons" during almost every meeting and would leap up screaming usually "Jehovah" but sometimes obscenities whereupon Harry and other "mature" men would grab her and wrestle her to the floor in an attempt to get her outside. When door knocking with her one day she confided that she was frequently groped by certain ones and one in particular during these episodes.

  Do you remember the fashion parades every meeting when one teenager after another would strut from the back of the KH up the aisle across in front of the platform into the toilets behind the platform, then ten minutes return so the whole congregation could get a front view of whatever was the latest fashion?

  Yes, happy days.

  NO WASTED YEARS.
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  22

  So after a month on here...I would like JW lurkers to read as well.

  by Aussie Oz in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i learn: the watchtower society's first president was not ct russell, that he was into pyramids, that rutherford hijacked his little religion and turned it into a powerhouse for publishing, that he liked sly grog, had 2 cadillacs to al capones 1, was a bully, and had cancer of the bum, that over all the years they can't make up their mind between new and old light, that the governing body dont even consult the bible, that they had at least one gay g/b member, manipulate prophecy, set dates and blame the flock, invented disfellowshipping just after critizing the catholics for excomunication, avoid taxes, lie on the stand, joined the u.n, own billions of dollars worth of ny, trade stocks and shares, tried be friends with hitler, condoned bribery in mexico, let the flock think they were resticted by the mexican govt, let mallawians die for nothing, keep watering down the blood policy, whitwash their own history, have secret books to help child custody battles, hides criminals, runs heretic witch hunts, spys, has two watchtower mags, supported swaggert in court, lies, controls minds, protects pedophiles, punishes victims, tears families apart, is anti education, is practically run by lawyers, has more corporations than wallstreet it seems, promote wt lit as part of the bible, supported racial segregation in the south, policed the bedroom, that the bible and preaching work are a front for a massive, giant megalomaniacal malevolent publishing house.

  that none of this is unsupported lies!.

  and to think that a month or so ago, i thought the only dirt on them might have been being a little to harsh on shunning.. i feel sick.

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  still wondering

  Oh! I forgot, as Focus used to say,

  Experts at Vending Door-To-Door Weasel-wording, Roguery .. and DEATH